8-Dec-2021 : LAB: 40 / CON: 34 / LDEM: 10 / GRN: 4

[Deleted]

Just one more thing about about the ethnic (well, tancred defined it as skin colour) composition of the ancient empires. Beyond the fact that we have evidence of slave trading with Sub-Saharan Africa in the Roman Empire (and it is even present in Britain from that time), there is something else - I don't know Latin, but in ancient Greek colours were named by the intensity (hence the purple colour of the sky as it is translated today from Odysseus), which couldn't be particularly unusual at the time of the development of languages (in Russian there are two blue colours, but they are not light and dark blue as it is translated, but different intensity of the colour. I'm quite sure that I read something similar about the pre medieval Welsh language too). This is only because of the argument that tancred used.

Ethnic differentiation (racism) can use many arguments. Racist Hungarians call Romanians "hairy sole" and the Slovakians are called "volvate" by them and so on. So not by colour. Just check how the Roman authors managed to describe the Galls as inferior race...

[pete]

I'd also not be using Steven Barret as some sort of seer on the Colston statue case

The Secret Barrister
@barristersecret
I regret to have to do this, but as Steven is in this article holding himself out as a barrister, without disclosing that he does not practise criminal law, some corrections are required to the multiple factual errors. [THREAD]

[barbara]

Jan 7, 2022 14:34:17 GMT wb61 said:

There are only very limited circumstances where acquittal by a Jury can be appealed where the acquittal resulted from interference with or intimidation of a juror or witness.

colin

Jurors are selected randomly by civil servants. As I understand it this is now a centralised system which relies on the electoral register (but I cannot guarantee that). At court a jury panel is assembled for a particular week, court clerks are given a number between 15 and 18 names of the panel for a particular case which they are dealing with (most courts will have three to five courts in operation at any one time) and the names will be on a series of cards which are shuffled and the first twelve names selected. None of the lawyers will have any advance notice of this panel. Prior to this the group of 15 to 18 will have in many, but not all courts, have been given a questionnaire with specific questions relating to their knowledge of witnesses etc. which may disqualify them from hearing that particular case, if there is no such questionnaire the Judge will usually ask those questions of the panel before the 12 are selected. Once selected because those questions have been asked there is rarely any objection to a Juror. Objections to a juror must be for cause, and that cause must be explored in open court. I have rarely seen objections and these have usually been because a relevant question has not been asked beforehand, so that for instance a juror knows a barrister in the case.

Where else but UKPR2 would we get all this on the spot legal information and background. I'm learning so much. Thank you wb61

[steamdrivenandy]

Jan 7, 2022 15:31:29 GMT pete said:

I find it amazing people are so up in arms about a statue of a slave trader being toppled and yet never up in arms about how many are homeless or using food banks, you know struggling to fecking survive in Tory Britain. It really does say something about some peoples priorities in life.

Good to see you taking my words to heart Pete, now about that Samsung frost free jobby.

[leftieliberal]

Jan 7, 2022 14:36:42 GMT mercian said:

 I do online polls sometimes for Yougov and others. These aren't just on political subjects and there is nearly always some logical anomaly which I point out in a vain effort to improve the quality.

I used to do polls for YouGov too and like you found logical anomalies that I pointed out on their feedback page at the end of each survey, but never saw any changes as a result; the anomalies just re-occurred. In the end last year, I gave up; I had just received a £50 payment (I was getting one on average every 2-3 years), but I was bored so resigned from their panel rather than slog on for another £50.

I've just joined Distributed Proofreaders, which prepares texts from scanned out-of-copyright books for conversion to e-books under Project Gutenberg. |I don't get anything from it apart from the satisfaction of seeing a book I have contributed to on the site.

[Deleted]

R&W's latest 'most important issues':

They also have a selection of who is viewed better on each issue (see also jimjam post on 'Economy') and how CON HMG rank on each measure (currently all -ve, see previous post by myself).

The 'statue' issue might well be a good excuse for CON HMG to crack down harder and reduce objection to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (see YG polling on folks view of how the statue was taken down) and Starmer will be on the 'wrong side' of popular if he makes too big an issue of it!

Sacrifice a few votes in very safe (woke) LAB seats v show he's also tough on crime and winning over voters in marginal seats? #nobrainer tactically but will PLP and LAB members allow Starmer to continue to move to Tory Plan B?

[domjg]

Jan 7, 2022 15:34:37 GMT @laszlo said:

Just one more thing about about the ethnic (well, tancred defined it as skin colour) composition of the ancient empires. Beyond the fact that we have evidence of slave trading with Sub-Saharan Africa in the Roman Empire (and it is even present in Britain from that time), there is something else - I don't know Latin, but in ancient Greek colours were named by the intensity (hence the purple colour of the sky as it is translated today from Odysseus), which couldn't be particularly unusual at the time of the development of languages (in Russian there are two blue colours, but they are not light and dark blue as it is translated, but different intensity of the colour. I'm quite sure that I read something similar about the pre medieval Welsh language too). This is only because of the argument that tancred used.

Ethnic differentiation (racism) can use many arguments. Hungarians call Romanians "hairy sole" and the Slovakians are volvate and so on. So not by colour. Just check how the Roman authors managed to describe the Galls as inferior race...

@laszlo - I'm particularly fond of the cuddly national insults the Dutch and the Belgians level at each other. To the Belgians the Dutch are 'Kaaskoppers' (cheese heads) and to the Dutch the Belgians are 'Patatvreters' (chip eaters). 

[wb61]

Jan 7, 2022 15:37:43 GMT barbara said:

Jan 7, 2022 14:34:17 GMT wb61 said:

Where else but UKPR2 would we get all this on the spot legal information and background. I'm learning so much. Thank you wb61

barbara

Thank you for that, I am usually too busy to do anything but lurk but found myself, at short notice, at a loose end today. I am, like most people I suppose, inclined to correct misconceptions about the profession and world to which I have devoted the last 30 odd years of my life. I am glad that you find it interesting and, hopefully, useful.  It is all to easy to believe that the work which I find consistently interesting piques everyone else's interest too; I am, by the way, disabused of that notion each night when I return home .

[Deleted]

Jan 7, 2022 15:46:22 GMT domjg said:

Jan 7, 2022 15:34:37 GMT @laszlo said:

Just one more thing about about the ethnic (well, tancred defined it as skin colour) composition of the ancient empires. Beyond the fact that we have evidence of slave trading with Sub-Saharan Africa in the Roman Empire (and it is even present in Britain from that time), there is something else - I don't know Latin, but in ancient Greek colours were named by the intensity (hence the purple colour of the sky as it is translated today from Odysseus), which couldn't be particularly unusual at the time of the development of languages (in Russian there are two blue colours, but they are not light and dark blue as it is translated, but different intensity of the colour. I'm quite sure that I read something similar about the pre medieval Welsh language too). This is only because of the argument that tancred used.

Ethnic differentiation (racism) can use many arguments. Hungarians call Romanians "hairy sole" and the Slovakians are volvate and so on. So not by colour. Just check how the Roman authors managed to describe the Galls as inferior race...

@laszlo - I'm particularly fond of the cuddly national insults the Dutch and the Belgians level at each other. To the Belgians the Dutch are 'Kaaskoppers' (cheese heads) and to the Dutch the Belgians are 'Patatvreters' (chip eaters). 

Thanks domjg it just reminded me to the SE English expression of "Dutch teeth", the American " Dutch comfort" and many others (I stop it here before going to the "Irish beauty".). Horrible.

[somerjohn]

Carfrew: Do you yourself think it is just those two things, or is there anything else quite important?

I said those are the reasons mostly commonly adduced by opponents of Euro membership; I didn't offer a judgement on their validity.

I suppose what you have in mind is having our own Central Bank. Whether that's a benefit or not depends on the quality of its decision-making vis-a-vis the ECB. I think the jury remains out on that one. Do you think Scotland would be better off with its own central bank?

[Danny]

zoe daily report continues with R=0.8 in London, 1.0 England and UK.

Separate graph of daily new cases indicates these are falling for both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. As I mentioned before, these have moved in step and proportionately for months, which is a bit odd since during that time many more people will have been vaccinated. Yet that doesnt seem to have changed the proportion of total cases in each group.

Very clear fall by now in London, peaked about 2 jan. Age groups data shows all of them with slowing modest rise, except under 20 which has been roughly static since the end of last term. It will be interesting to see what happens with kids now schools have resumed. Early information suggests some are certainly returning infected.

[domjg]

@laszlo I hadn't heard those expressions before, this place is very educational at times! What does 'Dutch teeth' mean? Googling it just returns articles on dentistry in NL!

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Jan 7, 2022 15:56:19 GMT somerjohn said:

Carfrew: Do you yourself think it is just those two things, or is there anything else quite important?

I said those are the reasons mostly commonly adduced by opponents of Euro membership; I didn't offer a judgement on their validity.

I suppose what you have in mind is having our own Central Bank. Whether that's a benefit or not depends on the quality of its decision-making vis-a-vis the ECB. I think the jury remains out on that one. Do you think Scotland would be better off with its own central bank?

Yes, while what you say has some truth to it, it does evade the rather glaring advantage we had in being able to bail out our banks and economy very quickly by being able to do hundreds of billions of QE. (Esp. given our hefty exposure to the banking crisis). 

Countries in the Eurozone had to wait something like five years before the EU followed our lead in that regard. With the pandemic of course, the EU was much quicker to do like us and do their version of QE. I’ve read a couple of articles that maybe the money might not be distributed that well, but I haven’t checked up on it. 

How much Scotland might benefit from a central bank might depend on things like strength of currency etc., but I can see there’s an argument for it.

[jib]

Latest official figures from the Government on R rates.

Latest R and growth rate for England
These estimates represent the transmission of COVID-19 2 to 3 weeks ago due to the time delay between someone being infected, developing symptoms, and needing healthcare.

There is increased uncertainty in both national and regional estimates at present, due to changing behaviour around the festive period, which makes trends in data streams unclear.

Latest R range for England
1.2 to 1.5

Latest growth rate range for England
+3% to +6%

(Source:gov.uk, 7 Jan)
www.gov.uk/guidance/the-r-value-and-growth-rate

[lululemonmustdobetter]

Whilst I have no issue at all with discussions of topics such as Colston's statue on this site (there have been much more obscure topics discussed at length before), I always fear issues such as this are a bit of a trap for the left in general. There are so few votes in them, and whilst the 'lefts' argument is in more cases than not technically correct, often the right's more simplistic argument touches a chord with a basically disinterested electorate. Also it often allows the right to 'define' who or what the left is and what it stands for. The right’s strategist know this all too well, hence the pushing/promotion of cultural ‘woke’ issues (it has worked so well in the past for the Republicans in the US).


That’s not to say the left should ditch these issues, far from it (I personally want genuine equality, social justice and the patriarchy dismantled). What the left needs to do is actually win so that it can make the necessary changes. I think Starmer gets this (as does all previous Labour leaders that have actually managed to win). Keep the agenda to cost of living, unmet promises, sleaze and incompetence and Labour has a chance – if ‘cultural’ war issue dominate then they’re toast.



PS its still bloody cold in the PSRL where the term 'Dutch Teeth' seems to have past out of general parlance some time ago!

[jib]

alec

"Covid has so far got progressively worse (as measured by hospitalisation) with Alpha then Delta, with Omicron partly reversing that but still representing a c 50% increased risk of hospitalisation than the original.

Thanks heavens for vaccines!"

Absolutely agree. A triumph of science and learning over a very dangerous disease.

[guymonde]

Jan 7, 2022 14:36:42 GMT mercian said:

 I do online polls sometimes for Yougov and others. These aren't just on political subjects and there is nearly always some logical anomaly which I point out in a vain effort to improve the quality.

Yes, I do YouGov polls too, and sometimes have a similar experience, but have mainly given up giving feedback.

Yesterday I had a questionnaire via text message from some agency related to the NHS, following a cycling accident where I had some broken bones (I was knocked off by a psychiatrist driving a Smart car, which seemed to have some internal poetry).
After a number of questions about my recovery I was asked about the date of my menopause, and after that, whether I was still having menses.
I must admit I had assumed the clue was in my name, but I suppose today one never knows...

[Deleted]

Jan 7, 2022 15:59:36 GMT domjg said:

@laszlo I hadn't heard those expressions before, this place is very educational at times! What does 'Dutch teeth' mean? Googling it just returns articles on dentistry in NL!

It is the sticking forward front teeth. Probably only (if at all) used in the US now. I have a Mirriam dictionary on these nation-associated expressions and their origins. This one was used in SE England and then made its way to the US. Sometimes one smiles at some of them, but when reading them one after the other... I suppose it could be a good cure too. Just for the last one: rickets in Hungarian is English disease.

I suppose some here would say it is "woke" to fight these expressions (I am not advocating deleting them, just advocating not using them).

[steamdrivenandy]

Mrs SDA ran a Renault Twingo circa 2015 to 2017, it's built in the same factory as the Smart and has slightly different body parts and furnishing. I never saw any poetry in it, though I guess the name could be said to rhyme.

[guymonde]

Jan 7, 2022 15:06:54 GMT bantams said:

Jan 7, 2022 14:59:12 GMT oldnat said:

The important point is that guymonde has broken the law by describing the deliberations of the jury of which he is a member.

An admission of criminal behaviour by a respected member of this forum should at least have resulted in an outburst of outrage by those who are insistent on all breaches of the law being severely punished, if not demands for immediate defenestration, incarceration, bankruptcy or all three sanctions.

For a minute there I thought you wrote immediate castration which would have been a tad strong..............

Might stop me from writing bollocks on this site.  Though others are far more fertile: I can barely raise a second star for goodness sake

[tancred]

Jan 7, 2022 15:46:37 GMT wb61 said:

Thank you for that, I am usually too busy to do anything but lurk but found myself, at short notice, at a loose end today. I am, like most people I suppose, inclined to correct misconceptions about the profession and world to which I have devoted the last 30 odd years of my life. I am glad that you find it interesting and, hopefully, useful.  It is all to easy to believe that the work which I find consistently interesting piques everyone else's interest too; I am, by the way, disabused of that notion each night when I return home .

Looking back I wish I had done a law degree instead of my comparatively useless history one. The trouble is that even in the mid '80s you needed excellent A level grades to do law at a major university. I could have gone to Oxford Poly or the City of London Poly, but in end I chose to do history at Birmingham University. My teachers strangely discouraged me from the legal profession because of the costs that would have to be met in training. Not coming from a very pecunious family background, I listened to them.

[domjg]

Jan 7, 2022 16:34:54 GMT @laszlo said:

Jan 7, 2022 15:59:36 GMT domjg said:

@laszlo I hadn't heard those expressions before, this place is very educational at times! What does 'Dutch teeth' mean? Googling it just returns articles on dentistry in NL!

It is the sticking forward front teeth. Probably only (if at all) used in the US now. I have a Mirriam dictionary on these nation-associated expressions and their origins. This one was used in SE England and then made its way to the US. Sometimes one smiles at some of them, but when reading them one after the other... I suppose it could be a good cure too. Just for the last one: rickets in Hungarian is English disease.

I suppose some here would say it is "woke" to fight these expressions (I am not advocating deleting them, just advocating not using them).

Thanks @laszlo Hadn't heard that one before.

[tancred]

Jan 7, 2022 15:19:49 GMT leftieliberal said:

Stephen Bush on "Can Labour and the Liberal Democrats unite to defeat the Conservatives?"

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2022/01/can-the-labour-and-liberal-democrat-leaders-unite-to-defeat-the-conservatives


One strange irony of the doomed Miliband era is that, behind the scenes, relations between the two so-called progressive parties remained in fairly good order. Jonny Oates, Clegg’s chief of staff, remained in discreet but frequent contact with Stewart Wood, one of Miliband’s closest aides. It took Corbyn’s election as Labour leader in 2015 to sever communication between the two offices.
Under Keir Starmer, the two leaders’ offices are once again in regular conversation. Starmer concedes that, while Labour will stand a candidate in every constituency at the next election (excluding those in Northern Ireland), the party will campaign less aggressively in seats where the Lib Dems are the main Tory challenger.

Looking good. Of course an overall majority for Labour like in 1997 will make it all moot, but an informal understanding has the advantage that Labour do not have to consider a deal with the SNP until after the General Election, depending on the outcome.

Campaigning 'less aggressively' is pretty meaningless. He should convince the NEC to amend the Labour constitution to enable Labour not to run candidates in certain seats where it is not strategically profitable to do so. I think there is only 5% chance of Labour winning an overall majority under the current electoral system. The best result from my perspective would anyway be a hung parliament with Labour as the largest party.

[guymonde]

Jan 7, 2022 16:34:54 GMT @laszlo said:

Jan 7, 2022 15:59:36 GMT domjg said:

@laszlo I hadn't heard those expressions before, this place is very educational at times! What does 'Dutch teeth' mean? Googling it just returns articles on dentistry in NL!

It is the sticking forward front teeth. Probably only (if at all) used in the US now. I have a Mirriam dictionary on these nation-associated expressions and their origins. This one was used in SE England and then made its way to the US. Sometimes one smiles at some of them, but when reading them one after the other... I suppose it could be a good cure too. Just for the last one: rickets in Hungarian is English disease.

I suppose some here would say it is "woke" to fight these expressions (I am not advocating deleting them, just advocating not using them).

I believe a French Letter is also a Capote Anglaise

[crossbat11]

Jack Dromey, Labour MP for Erdington and former leader of Unite has died aged 73. Got to know him a little from my time at the Jaguar plant in Castle Bromwich, part of his constituency. A good friend of mine works in his constituency office.

Good and decent man who will be much missed by his friends, constituents and family. Not least by his wife Harriet Harman.

[crossbat11]

I should have added RIP Jack.

[oldnat]

Jan 7, 2022 15:56:19 GMT somerjohn said:

I suppose what you have in mind is having our own Central Bank. Whether that's a benefit or not depends on the quality of its decision-making vis-a-vis the ECB. I think the jury remains out on that one. Do you think Scotland would be better off with its own central bank?

Of course, all the 19 euro area countries continue to have their own central banks and their governors, along with the six members of the Executive Board form the Governing Council of the European Central Bank which takes the decisions on interest rates et al.

The question isn't whether to have a central bank or not, but the freedom of action that it has. In the UK, only one government owns and controls the Central Bank. Whether that government acts in the interest of the whole UK, or primarily for part of it is a matter of political opinion.

[leftieliberal]

Jan 7, 2022 16:59:25 GMT crossbat11 said:

Jack Dromey, Labour MP for Erdington and former leader of Unite has died aged 73. Got to know him a little from my time at the Jaguar plant in Castle Bromwich, part of his constituency. A good friend of mine works in his constituency office.

Good and decent man who will be much missed by his friends, constituents and family. Not least by his wife Harriet Harman.

73 is no age these days. At least Birmingham Erdington is a safe seat for Labour (10% majority even in 2019).

[oldnat]

"Organisations/individuals who rescue people at sea will now be exempt from criminal prosecution."

www.nautilusint.org/en/news-insight/news/union-campaign-ensures-seafarers-exempt-from-criminal-prosecution-under-new-uk-immigration-bill/

[shevii]

Jan 7, 2022 15:43:11 GMT leftieliberal said:

Jan 7, 2022 14:36:42 GMT mercian said:

I've just joined Distributed Proofreaders, which prepares texts from scanned out-of-copyright books for conversion to e-books under Project Gutenberg. |I don't get anything from it apart from the satisfaction of seeing a book I have contributed to on the site.

I love that site!  Maybe more the principal of the thing (preserving in digital form books that might otherwise be lost) than getting that many books off it but I think it's a great idea.  So you just volunteer and they give you a random book to check?

I have had cause to use software to convert JPG to text but find that often because the original newspaper reports are bad copies it takes me a very long time to correct (sometimes best just typing in the original report) as the OCR isn't that great- I assume you don't have that issue or need to look at the original?

I also "support" the British newspaper Archive which scans copies of national and local newspapers- I say support because I have an annual subscription whereas I could be able to binge what I want in a month and then wait a year or two to add new titles.

And completing my anal retentive wish list it would be great if sites like spotify actively tracked down any music that was ever made but I guess they will only do easy, commercial things already in format.  Sometimes the "pirate" music sites are better because people take the trouble to convert vinyl only to digital.