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Post by tancred on Jan 6, 2022 23:12:55 GMT
The so-called secret barrister's core argument is that this was fundamentally about the right to freedom of thought and conscience and the right to freedom of expression. Toppling or smashing a statue in a public area is criminal damage - I simply don't accept that this has anything to do with protesting or expressing your views, except in the most brutal way. You can protest and express your views without causing damage to anything. The problem with an uncodified legal system like our own is that any clever barrister can talk utter bilge in a court room and, if he is sufficiently skilled, convince a jury that black is white. In my view, if you do something illegal then you have to face a penalty for it - simple as that. The defendants should have been convicted and received a stiff fine for what they did, and one that would have deterred them from future actions of this type. |
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Post by robert on Jan 6, 2022 23:17:53 GMT
robert The only thing those who stormed the Capitol were oppressed by was their own credulous idiocy. So, same as in Bristol then? |
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Post by tancred on Jan 6, 2022 23:18:09 GMT
So, what you are saying is that an inanimate statue is an 'oppressor'? What utter nonsense. If you'd bothered to read the next five words you would have seen very well what I meant. Why is some bloke from the 17th century with a wig a 'symbol of oppression'? What about the statues of Roman emperors? Why not go to Rome and topple the lot! These people oppressed a good deal of Europe and the Mediterranean. What about Napoleon? Let's all go off to France and topple every statue of Napoleon, an oppressor if ever there was one. And what about every king and emperor in all of Europe - they were all oppressors!! This is utter nonsense. Woke nonsense that the left in this country is supporting and that is putting off and will continue to put off middle of the road voters. Starmer should condemn this unambiguously. |
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Post by tancred on Jan 6, 2022 23:23:41 GMT
A UK jury found in English law that the defendents were innocent. It really shouldn't be a difficult concept But they admitted the criminal act. Their excuses cannot override the criminal act that they carried out, which may mitigate the punishment but most certainly cannot excuse it. Perhaps it would have been more sensible for the trial to have taken place 200 miles away, where the jury is less likely to have been sympathetic to the cause. I would hope that someone, somewhere is trawling the social media of the jurors, to ascertain if any has ever expressed any support or sympathy for these hooligans, in their actions. of course the straightforward solution would have been a local referendum. That would have been democracy. One man, one vote as with Brexit. Trial by jury should be kept only for murder, rape and similar very egregious crimes. It's time we eliminated it from the courts for minor crimes and crimes not involving violence against the person. The attack on the statue was an act of criminal damage against a public structure, nothing less and nothing more. |
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Post by thexterminatingdalek on Jan 6, 2022 23:25:12 GMT
As a white middle class healthy man, I'm entirely the wrong demographic to address that question. Way to dodge the question. It doesn't even make sense. It's a question anybody should be able to answer. Since it had nothing to do with what I said in my post, it's one I've no inclination to engage with. |
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Post by mercian on Jan 6, 2022 23:38:25 GMT
Obviously a nasty piece of work. But why the mob rule approach of directly toppling the statue instead of following an accepted legal way of getting rid of it? When legal means fail, those who are literally or metaphorically punched in the face by oppressors or symbols of their oppression eventually stop sitting down in the road and start breaking things. It's how history works. So when UKIP failed to get their wish by democratic means in 2015 and Cameron had not promised a referendum on EU membership, it would have been ok for them to riot? Yes or No? If you don't like the UKIP example, can you explain how the people who were prosecuted for toppling the statue were oppressed? They were all white people of the 21st century, so even though they sympathised with black people from several hundred years ago they were hardly oppressed themselves. |
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Post by mercian on Jan 6, 2022 23:44:22 GMT
tancredFor someone who is on the left, I must say you are very sensible. It makes a refreshing change these days. I had a lot of respect for some Labour people from the olden days - e.g. Healey, Benn, Cook etc but lately the left seems to have been hijacked by nutters. Starmer is doing his cardboard-cutout best to fight against it admittedly.
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Post by robert on Jan 6, 2022 23:46:47 GMT
Way to dodge the question. It doesn't even make sense. It's a question anybody should be able to answer. Since it had nothing to do with what I said in my post, it's one I've no inclination to engage with. @exterminatingdalek On the contrary, From Littlejohn, Mail online: "It came as no surprise to discover that the defendants — who maintained the statue was a ‘hate crime’ against the black citizens of Bristol — were all white, middle-class millennials called Sage, Milo, Rhian and Jake. Nor that the rest of the mob was predominantly white, too. Of course they were." So you see, "As a white middle class healthy man," (your words, although quite what healthy has got to do with it?) you are entirely the right demographic to answer the question posed. Let's hear what Kier Starmer has to say about it because this woke crap goes to the heart of why I am unlikely to ever vote Labour, no matter how bad the Tories get. Soft on crime, soft on punishment. Mob rule by a minority=anarchy. |
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Post by eor on Jan 6, 2022 23:49:12 GMT
EoR "Specifically in Wales I feel there's a reasonable argument to say that we no longer need the over-representation previously designed into the seat boundaries because the existence and powers of the Senedd better serve as effective political redress for the difference between the average Welsh seat and the average English seat."Is that still the case? I had thought that Welsh representation in HoC had already been reduced to a UK norm, as has happened in Scotland and NI - but perhaps not. Average electorate for a County seat in Wales (which is all bar six of them) at the 2019 GE was 56,600 Equivalent figure for Scotland was 68,800 and NI 72,800 English regions varied quite a bit; East - 78,700 East Mids - 77,500 London - 66,800 (three seats) North East - 66,000 North West - 71,500 South East - 79,700 South West - 77,000 West Mids - 73,600 Yorks & Humber - 75,700 Averages for Borough seats are rather closer; Wales - 65,900 (six seats) Scotland - 68,300 NI - 68,500 (four seats) England - 73,300 (regions ranging from 67k-77k) So it's those County seats (basically everything outside of Cardiff and Swansea) that are the reason why the proposed seat reduction is so pronounced in Wales. (definitions and figures from data here commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8749/ ) |
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Post by tancred on Jan 6, 2022 23:49:58 GMT
tancred For someone who is on the left, I must say you are very sensible. It makes a refreshing change these days. I had a lot of respect for some Labour people from the olden days - e.g. Healey, Benn, Cook etc but lately the left seems to have been hijacked by nutters. Starmer is doing his cardboard-cutout best to fight against it admittedly. I'm not left or right. I oppose Brexit but that doesn't mean that I am left wing. As I stated previously I am a social conservative with fairly left economic views but right wing views on many other matters. Politically I'm homeless. |
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Post by jimjam on Jan 6, 2022 23:51:41 GMT
James - thanks for that AW piece.
I seem to recall ICM changing LDs to 30$ also at some point but may be mistaken.
Main purpose of my post, though, was to welcome posts on polling on the site.
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Post by tancred on Jan 6, 2022 23:53:48 GMT
Since it had nothing to do with what I said in my post, it's one I've no inclination to engage with. @exterminatingdalek On the contrary, From Littlejohn, Mail online: "It came as no surprise to discover that the defendants — who maintained the statue was a ‘hate crime’ against the black citizens of Bristol — were all white, middle-class millennials called Sage, Milo, Rhian and Jake. Nor that the rest of the mob was predominantly white, too. Of course they were." So you see, "As a white middle class healthy man," (your words, although quite what healthy has got to do with it?) you are entirely the right demographic to answer the question posed. Let's hear what Kier Starmer has to say about it because this woke crap goes to the heart of why I am unlikely to ever vote Labour, no matter how bad the Tories get. Soft on crime, soft on punishment. Mob rule by a minority=anarchy. These obnoxious far-left guilt ridden young white middle class types are always the ones at the forefront of such activities. Their old parents and/or grandparents are probably the ones engaged in the loony 'insulate Britain' stunts. |
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Post by eor on Jan 6, 2022 23:56:50 GMT
Actually, jib 's point about upsetting marginal Tory MPs goes deeper than just Wales. The same data suggests the distinction in size between Tory and Labour seats (across GB) is now much narrower, not least as a result of electoral fortune. The average seat won by the Tories in 2019 had 74,600 electors, and the average seat won by Labour had 72,200 - this gap was nearly halved by the 2019 election itself, with the seats gained by CON from LAB being typically smaller than the average seat held by either party prior to the election (due in part to them being disproportionately in Wales and the North East of England). So it suggests that Tory MPs from the 2019 intake may, on average, face tougher competition to find a viable successor seat amongst the redrawn boundaries. (commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8749/ ) |
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Post by mercian on Jan 6, 2022 23:59:49 GMT
tancred For someone who is on the left, I must say you are very sensible. It makes a refreshing change these days. I had a lot of respect for some Labour people from the olden days - e.g. Healey, Benn, Cook etc but lately the left seems to have been hijacked by nutters. Starmer is doing his cardboard-cutout best to fight against it admittedly. I'm not left or right. I oppose Brexit but that doesn't mean that I am left wing. As I stated previously I am a social conservative with fairly left economic views but right wing views on many other matters. Politically I'm homeless. Apologies. I thought I remembered you saying that you would never vote Tory. |
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Post by mercian on Jan 7, 2022 0:00:53 GMT
James - thanks for that AW piece. I seem to recall ICM changing LDs to 30$ also at some point but may be mistaken. Main purpose of my post, though, was to welcome posts on polling on the site. Well played. I'm stopping now. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jan 7, 2022 0:07:59 GMT
eor
Thanks for the detail on electorate size. As I said originally, it had been my perception that Wales had been brought into line with the standard UK range of electorate numbers, but obviously hadn't.
Of course, averages conceal that the legislation includes exceptions for island and very sparsely populated constituencies, so are of limited value.
I'm not particularly minded to argue for or against such exceptions, since the entire FPTP electoral system for the UK is stupid anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 0:08:49 GMT
James - thanks for that AW piece. I seem to recall ICM changing LDs to 30$ also at some point but may be mistaken. Main purpose of my post, though, was to welcome posts on polling on the site. Good luck with that. (By the way - where do you stand on statue-gate?) |
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Post by Mark on Jan 7, 2022 0:11:18 GMT
Re-the statue. I'm not sure that comparing those toppling a single statue can be compared with those storming the Capitol building last year.
The statue-topplers were not violent. When they downed a single statue, they did not go round the streets smashing windows or looting, the merely cheered and carried on with a peaceful protest, thn went to the legal system and said "we did it and here's why". Nobody got hurt, nothing else got damaged.
As to the toppling itself, a genuine question for those who disagreed with the verdict.
What are your thoughts on the toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Ieaq? Ok, slightly different as he was alive and had been that country's dictator up until then, but, more like for like, toppling of statues of Lenin in former Soviet republics?
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Post by eor on Jan 7, 2022 0:12:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 0:14:46 GMT
No mention of Black Country accent(s). Very distinctive from Brummie. Nothing from Scotland except Glasgow. Some Scottish accents are quite easy on the ear. In general I find most accents attractive so long as they're not too broad. In the pub where we play chess I sometimes have to ask the Rumanian barmaid what the yamyams are saying. 😄 I did expect some folks would be upset 'by omission'. Perhaps they only asked about the most well known or recognisable? In the hidden comments then perhaps some folks upset with where the lines are drawn (eg cockney is a specific part of E.London innit, although I'm part of Received Pronunciation (best in UK) then folks in SW.London would spill their Prosecco if they were called cockney). For sure some noticeable difference within Mercia and the areas close to your largest city. Scottish Borders accent is very pleasant on the ear but other areas (eg NE.Scotland) are not (IMO, although I might be biased by my view of the 'people' in those areas - friends by choice v family) Terrible maps have some funny stuff, not sure about the accuracy: or for international and a bit of history: |
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Post by guymonde on Jan 7, 2022 0:25:37 GMT
I'm probably going to have overlooked various scenarios ( steve might have a few he could think of) but seems to me to be OK if 12 people come to a verdict that may not be entirely based on the law of the land but is representative of what your actual population thinks should be the law of the land. I suppose it might become a problem in a redneck state with race issues (and probably has been) but I suspect a jury has more common sense for any particular scenario then the lawmakers who either didn't consider that scenario or weren't in tune with what the country wants when they made the law. Yes 12 isn't a representative sample but seems unlikely that in Bristol (or anywhere for that matter) there wouldn't have been any ROC people on the jury. It's not like there is a majority in the country for pulling down statues so maybe the jury, including rule of law types, just accepted the specific arguments of this case. I served on a jury at Birkenhead Crown Court c1974. Elderly woman accused of nicking a tin of mince value 68p from the Co-op. No previous. Unappealing store detective. Had opted for Crown Court despite potential longer sentence to prove her innocence. In th jury it was like 12 angry men. Most of us (maybe all) thought 'she done it' but one guy thought we should acquit because a) it was 68p b) she was old and humble c) store detective was horrible d) ruining an old woman's life for that... After a couple of hours debate we found her not guilty. I was 21 or 22 and had never been engaged in anything like that. I tried to get the prosecution to disbar me by dressing in a bright red T shirt, denim wrangler jacket and jeans, lomh hair, beard etc. But I came out thinking juries are fantastic. |
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Post by eor on Jan 7, 2022 0:36:47 GMT
eor Thanks for the detail on electorate size. As I said originally, it had been my perception that Wales had been brought into line with the standard UK range of electorate numbers, but obviously hadn't. Of course, averages conceal that the legislation includes exceptions for island and very sparsely populated constituencies, so are of limited value. Indeed - removing the four exceptionally small County seats from the Scottish average makes a significant difference (from 68k to 72k). Although I couldn't discern any similar distortion within the Welsh data, with Ynys Mon not being a particularly striking outlier and not being aware of a reason why eg Wrexham would be unusually small other than by gradual population shift. Perhaps jib will correct me on this tho! I suppose the argument would be made that it's a strength of FPTP that it enables certain distinct communities to retain their representation in a way that would not be possible if subsumed into larger multi-member areas. Or that if comparing to a system that retains constituencies but then rebalances regionally or nationally to a more proportional outcome, then this question of the fairness of the varying sizes of constituencies would remain. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 0:37:43 GMT
What are your thoughts on the toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Ieaq? Ok, slightly different as he was alive and had been that country's dictator up until then 'Slightly' different? Colston died in 1721. UK passed the Slavery Abolition Act in 1833 (one of the first countries to do so - something we should be proud of) My 2c: The statue should have moved to a museum (via local democratic proposes) as it was a 'target' but since I don't have a time machine then the relevant law is: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/48I expect the 'opinion' will be highly biased[1] along predictable lines and whoever started it was most likely on a 'baiting' exercise (one of the folks whose comments I hide). TBC if there will be an appeal or even a retrial but I hope no one is claiming the current decision is final (and has 'forgotten' all the jury decisions that they didn't like). [1] TBC if the news is deemed 'poll-worthy' but FWIW (and given this is supposed to be a polling forum), then at the time: Approve of the statue being removed, but not in the way in which it was done: 40%
Disapprove of the statue being removed: 33%
Approve of the statue being removed and the way in which it was done: 13%
With a partisan bias (eg majority of CON disapprove(d) of the statue being removed) but note only 21% of LAB approve(d) of the statue being removed and the way in which it was done) yougov.co.uk/topics/philosophy/survey-results/daily/2020/06/08/1ab21/1 |
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Post by oldnat on Jan 7, 2022 0:42:06 GMT
guymonde
I too have served on a jury that acquitted the accused.
Without seeing the guidance given by the judge to the jury, all the irrelevant posturing on the jury's verdict is worthless.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jan 7, 2022 0:54:47 GMT
eor
"I suppose the argument would be made that it's a strength of FPTP that it enables certain distinct communities to retain their representation in a way that would not be possible if subsumed into larger multi-member areas."
I realise that you are not making that particular argument yourself, but PR systems can also make adjustments for such communities, so the argument made by your putative FPTP fanatic would be inaccurate.
The Scottish Elections (Reform) Act 2020 has given Boundaries Scotland increased flexibility to vary the size of wards. Mainland wards may now have between 2 and 5 councillors, and single councillor wards are permitted where such a ward includes an inhabited island.
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Post by robert on Jan 7, 2022 2:03:00 GMT
Re-the statue. I'm not sure that comparing those toppling a single statue can be compared with those storming the Capitol building last year. The statue-topplers were not violent. When they downed a single statue, they did not go round the streets smashing windows or looting, the merely cheered and carried on with a peaceful protest, thn went to the legal system and said "we did it and here's why". Nobody got hurt, nothing else got damaged. As to the toppling itself, a genuine question for those who disagreed with the verdict. What are your thoughts on the toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Ieaq? Ok, slightly different as he was alive and had been that country's dictator up until then, but, more like for like, toppling of statues of Lenin in former Soviet republics? if the police had got off their fat backsides and actually done the job they are supposedly paid for, I.e. preventing criminal damage in this case, arresting the culprits and carting them away, then the protesters probably would have got violent. How different is our police force now from the one that kept the anarchists at bay in the 1980s. As for Hussein and Lenin, not they are not my polities, I don't have a view. Other countries can do what they like with their statues, frankly. As for juries, in almost 55 years I've never been asked but that's probably because I'm a property owning, white, middle class male, whose worst offence is a speeding ticket. Every measure of which, probably disbars me. I've passed the age limit now anyway. |
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Post by barbara on Jan 7, 2022 5:14:39 GMT
Thank you Hireton. For those of us without benefit of legal training this is an excellent explanation of how the jury APPLIED the law in this case. Pity the politicians and Daily Mail writers hadn't read it first before spouting off inaccurate and dangerous assumptions. It certainly helped me to understand both the principle and practice of juries in cases and the law of criminal damage. |
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Post by neilj on Jan 7, 2022 6:05:46 GMT
Not a great fan of Jacob Rees-mogg, but he makes good points here
"one of our greatest monuments is the jury system which is the great sublime protector of our liberties".
"Juries must be free to come to decisions that they choose to come to on the facts that are in front of them in relation to a specific case and what they hear from the prosecuting counsel, from the defence counsel and from the judge,"
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Post by pete on Jan 7, 2022 6:57:06 GMT
Since it had nothing to do with what I said in my post, it's one I've no inclination to engage with. @exterminatingdalek On the contrary, From Littlejohn, Mail online: "It came as no surprise to discover that the defendants — who maintained the statue was a ‘hate crime’ against the black citizens of Bristol — were all white, middle-class millennials called Sage, Milo, Rhian and Jake. Nor that the rest of the mob was predominantly white, too. Of course they were." So you see, "As a white middle class healthy man," (your words, although quite what healthy has got to do with it?) you are entirely the right demographic to answer the question posed. Let's hear what Kier Starmer has to say about it because this woke crap goes to the heart of why I am unlikely to ever vote Labour, no matter how bad the Tories get. Soft on crime, soft on punishment. Mob rule by a minority=anarchy. The present Tory party is basically always being accused(rightly imo)of being corrupt and your moaning about Labour being woke. Not even sure I've read or heard any Labour MPs say/do anything woke, perhaps you could show us where? Or even tell us what woke is to you as it seems to mean different things to different people? |
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Post by neilj on Jan 7, 2022 7:15:34 GMT
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